Curse

Malos · Jun 22, 2007, 12:03 PM // 12:03

All you guys are doing is going over the same points.
Yes bows aren't good for DPS, but if that's what you were going for wouldn't you be playing something else?
Yes bows have become a utility weapon but can we change that?
The only reason this debate has come up is because with the introduction of the Paragon into the game Rangers no longer had a monopoly on ranged weapons.
If you want to talk about adding a KD and Deep Wound ability to the bow then you would be talking about having to rebalance the game because of the ability to spread conditions with Fevered Dreams. The whole point of them not being able to KD and inflict Deep Wound is because Anet did not want one class being able to deal out all of the conditions.
And you guys can't compare the bow to say a scythe... it's like comparing apples to oranges, no matter what you do they're always gonna be different.

Will Anet buff the bow or nerf the spear? I think not they have one more expansion to put out and then they are done with GW1. Anything they plan on doing will be done in GW2. So some of you need to stop whining about them buffing or nerfing because it probably won't happen in this game.

EDIT: Sorry just fixing some spelling and grammar errors.

QoH · Jun 22, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destinyy

Rangers KDing is simply not possible my man. I shoot IRL (yes I know this is a game) and there is no way any arrow will take someone off their feet.

offtopic, no offense: imo if someone got hit by an arrow irl then there is a good chance that the target don't walk away..., pretty impossible to compare real life to "game life".

Droven · Jun 22, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Well i'm not gonna make a comment on the subject but KD:

I read ppl talking about KD with bow, i think it should be possible. ie. they can buff Pin Down and make it sth like

If Pin Down hits, your target is "Crippled" for 3...13 seconds. If you land a critical hit, your target is knocked-down for 2...5 seconds.

This would be cool, since Pin down has longer recharge and needs more energy than Crippling shot and CS can't be blocked, 5 secs of KD is ok

.

LifeInfusion · Jun 22, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by melandru ascended

5: Spears are kinda weak without an IAS making you allrdy spent1/2 slots on
6: Spears also need skills for more damage...

The argument over at GWO is basically that spears don't need energy (half of the attacks are adrenaline attacks) and that they only use one hand.

Another problem is the ability to keep an IAS all the time for minimal investment, since the paragon is designed for shouting/chanting and Aggressive Refrain keeps the IAS up with nearly no drawbacks (especially with cheap Adrenaline based shouts like Go for the Eyes and Watch Yourself).

Of course, it is easier to nerf spears than buff bows and bring back 3-2-1 Rspike in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Droven

This would be cool, since Pin down has longer recharge and needs more energy than Crippling shot and CS can't be blocked, 5 secs of KD is ok

.

5 second knockdown is like a nonelite Backbreaker, but even longer. Keep in mind you can do this from a long range outside of aggro circle, so that is even more crazy.

cataphract · Jun 22, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

KD from any type of bow is ridiculous. If rangers want to do KD, they have traps. A stance breaking skill isn't a bad idea. Deep wound isn't really utility, but more of a form of damage.

Why is a KD from any type of bow ridiculous? I mean, arrows fired from a longbow have enough kinetic energy to pierce armor and knock a target down. All I'm saying that a skil, elite one to keep it balanced, requiring a longbow or a hornbow could have KD. We all ready have Pin Down that basically says it will hit a target in the leg or foot and cripple it. A KD skill would hit on the chest. It's a simple matter of RL physics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malos

If you want to talk about adding a KD and Deep Wound ability to the bow then you would be talking about having to rebalance the game because of the ability to spread conditions with Fevered Dreams. The whole point of them not being able to KD and inflict Deep Wound is because Anet did not want one class being able to deal out all of the conditions.

Can you say WARRIOR?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

5 second knockdown is like a nonelite Backbreaker, but even longer. Keep in mind you can do this from a long range outside of aggro circle, so that is even more crazy.

I agree that 5 second KD is an overkill. A 1..3 sec KD tied to Expertise and doing 3 sec KD at 16 would be fine, IMO. Ofcourse, the requirement for KD would be that you're wielding a longbow or a hornbow.

Evilsod · Jun 23, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Just a small note here. BHA causes dazed...dazed causes spells to take twice as long to cast...

As for the rest, I'll just settle on saying that the bow is fine, but there are some Marks skills (particularly the damage dealing ones) that could use a buff. Nothing else for me to say here really.

Jesus i didn't think i had to spell it out...

I said 0.75 seconds because it would then mean the cast is 1.5 seconds. Which would still not be fast enough for a bow to interrupt even if they buffed its speed by 0.25 seconds. If it had an IAS it would be fast enough regardless of the change.

Look... don't even bother... nobody is going to say giving Rangers a knockdown in bow attack form is balanced. There are reasons why skills causing knockdowns are conditional, come with penalties, have high energy costs or high recharges. Knockdown is a powerful condition. The skill would either be almost unusable or too usable. A real sword would cut your frigging head off. A real arrow would prob kill you in 1 hit. I can only assume a real Meteor would kill you.

Age · Jun 23, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

I find nothing really wrong with bows and it is apples to oranges comparing them to Paragons spears.I use rtw or kindle along with my interrupts and I do use recurve bow.Rangers also have traps don't forget.

Epinephrine · Jun 23, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Bows are underpowered.

Some actually decent bow attacks would help a lot.

GeniusLoci · Jun 24, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

As many people compared them to spears, have this:
- spears' attacks are mostly addrenaline. Try 2 secs attacks (shortbow, same range) and it'll get forever to build up 6-7 addrenaline.
- not easy to apply "dazed" with spears
- way way less interrupts
- two most devastating attacks are on 3 sec cast
- no Quick shots, Dual and so on attack. No Barrage!
- need of other skills to rebuild energy if you run only energy spear attacks
Base damage is irrelevant, if you ask me. In everything else bows>spears.

Epinephrine - what exactly is "under" in bows? Some arguments, huh?

Fallen Nephilim · Jun 24, 2007, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Bows have cripshot.

Spears fail.

Epinephrine · Jun 24, 2007, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeniusLoci

Epinephrine - what exactly is "under" in bows? Some arguments, huh?

Why bother, it's the 4th page, nobody's listening anymore.

Basically:
Bows have horrid DPS
Spears are overpowered

Some people talk about how you can cycle through opponents poisoning them - umm, that's true with spears and a ranger secondary, take apply poison.

I'll admit that bows have some good utility but they have crap damage.

What bows do well is interrupt, Savage Shot and Distracting Shot are what make bows ok.

Barrage is a PvE skill, has nothing to do with PvP which is where rangers are seldom seen unless running burning arrow or sometimes cripshot.

BHA is garbage in PvP.

The preparations to boost damage are unusable without gimping yourself too much generally, you are limited to Read the Wind; +10 damage per shot is nice, but honestly it scarcely puts you ahead of a spear or sword auto attacking, and you've got to refresh it frequently; if you use another prep you sacrifice base damage to try for bonus damage. Plus you don't get a funky shield or even an offhand, or the ability to attack up to 3 adjacent foes at a time, and you gain less from any damage boost than any other weapon does, since you have the slowest attack rate. Conjure Flame? Sure, let's say you add 18 per shot, that's 9 DPS on a shortbow, more like 7.5 DPS with the much more common recurve/long bows. A spear would get 12 DPS from the same enchantment, a sword or axe would get 13.5 DPS, daggers could get 18 DPS.

The attack skill costs for bows tend to be high; to be able to afford them you need to pump expertise fairly high, which drastically limits your options for flexibility, probably why you don't see many damage oriented rangers spamming 10 cost attack skills. What's more, the Paragons and Warriors can supplement with adrenaline skills, saving even more energy, while the ranger pays for every attack skill.

I'm not advocating that a bow should be able to outdamage the highest DPS or spike builds other classes possess, but that when you focus on damage you should be as successful as some of the builds for other weapons; yes, the bow can apply conditions, but so can other weapons. Apply Poison is a great skill, but can be used on other weapons.

Another problem is that weapons are most useful when you can spike with them, after that comes damage pressure. Well, the bow clearly isn't a pressure tool, at much lower DPS than other weapons, and while you can R-spike with them, the spike damage per player isn't that great - it's much lower than what a warrior, assassin, dervish or paragon can put out; in fact the attack rate is in part to blame; a warrior, paragon or assassin can hit hit with successive attacks pretty quickly, especially under an IAS - a dervish can too, thanks to the very decent Eremites and Mystic attacks. The only way a ranger can do a spike of any sort is with an attack followed by an interrupt pretty much - it's not like other weapons can't also add this, e.g. critical chop or harrier's toss.

The fact that rangers simply aren't used in PvP for damage, short of a ranger spike setup is pretty definite proof that the ranger's damage dealing capabilities are limited.

LifeInfusion · Jun 25, 2007, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Like I said on GWOnline, you can apply poison on spears but that means you are speccing in spears on a ranger or speccing wilderness on a paragon. Either way, it means you cannot rune one of the attributes up.
If you run Apply Poison on a Paragon, you also have to deal with the 15 energy cost. That means they either have to spam shouts/chants to gain back the energy or rely on energy management unless they wait it out for 15 energy to regen on their 2 pips of energy regen.

Anyway, I think option B is more correct:
Spears are overpowered, since the bonus damage rivals (sometimes is more than) that of swords/axes and is a ranged one handed weapon.

The attack skill damage and base damage could use a nudge down. Aggressive Refrain could use a nerf also, since it is basically a permanent IAS that is not even a stance.

A look at strictly 5 energy based skills:
================================================== =======
Some numbers at 16 weapon mastery:
- Slayer's Spear (Spear Mastery) --> +26 damage. If that foe has more Health than you, that foe suffers from a Deep Wound for 21 seconds.
- Spear of Lightning (Spear Mastery) --> +21 lightning damage , 25% armor penetration.
- Vicious Attack (Spear Mastery) --> +21 damage. If you critical, Deep Wound for 16 seconds
- Furious Axe (Axe Mastery) --> +37 damage, 3 adrenaline if blocked
- Swift Chop (Axe Mastery) --> +21 damage, deep wound if blocked
- Critical Chop (Axe Mastery) --> +21 damage, interrupt
- Seeking Blade (Swordsmanship) --> +21 damage, blocked then Bleeding 21 seconds
- Jaizhenju Strike (Swordsmanship) --> +32 damage, not stanced then cannot be blocked
- Crushing Blow (Hammer Mastery) --> +21 damage. If you hit a knocked-down foe you inflict a Deep Wound, lowering your target's maximum Health by 20% for 21 seconds.
- Irresistible Blow (Hammer Mastery) --> +21 damage. blocked, your target is knocked down
- Mokele Smash (Hammer Mastery) +21 damage and gain 2 strikes of adrenaline.
- Renewing Smash (Hammer Mastery) --> +21 damage and all of your Warrior Stances are recharged.
- Arcing Shot (Marksmanship) --> +26 damage. cannot be blocked, but moves 150% slower
- Crossfire (Marksmanship) --> +21 damage. If that foe is near any of your allies, this attack cannot be blocked.
- Determined Shot (Marksmanship) --> +21 damage.
- Focused Shot (Marksmanship) -->+26 damage but all of your other attack skills are disabled for 3 seconds
- Hunter's Shot (Marksmanship) --> +16 damage. If this attack hits a foe that is moving or knocked down, that foe begins Bleeding for 26 seconds
- Keen Arrow (Marksmanship) --> +21 damage. If you land a critical hit, additional +37 damage

================================================== ========
If anything the deep wound needs to be taken off vicious attack as with GfTE up, it is more or less Eviscerate with no adrenaline to build up

As for Rangers, other than the skills have been balanced around expertise since with 9 expertise the skill are more or less 6 energy. Most of the skills are pretty much on par with Swords if you factor in 3 energy regen to the 2 energy regen of the other classes. I think the main problem at hand is more so that Paragons have an IAS with almost no downtime if shouts like GfTE are spammed.
The adrenaline mechanic is not really broken on melee, since it relies on hitting the target up close. The problem comes when you have a paragon with Aggressive Refrain and an adrenaline gain skill like Focused Anger that adds on top of it. Obviously I'm not calling for Focused Anger to be changed because some shouts cost a ridiculous amount of adrenaline...
But why does:
Barbed Spear cost 3 adrenaline when Sever Artery is 4 adrenaline?
Cruel Spear act as a ranged Eviscerate if it hits a non-moving foe?
Mighty Throw cost 2 adrenaline? There is nothing that is 2 adrenaline attack skill other than Mighty Throw...
Wild Throw have bonus damage AND not lose all adrenaline?
Spear of Lightning have 25% armor penetration?

It's not so much that bows are underwhelming, it's more like spears are one handed monsters and some bow attacks aren't that great and that's why they don't see use
- Penetrating Attack (Marksmanship) /Sundering Attack (Marksmanship) are like Penetrating chop and Penetrating blow...so they're aren't unbalanced just balanced to mediocre skills
- Power Shot (Marksmanship) --> needs a look at when you compare it to screaming shot
- Splinter Shot (Marksmanship) --> needs to be seriously fixed when target doesn't block
- Precision Shot (Marksmanship) --> needs to lose easily interrupted
- Point Blank Shot (Expertise) / Zojun's Shot (Expertise) --> damage is the same as Screaming and Power Shot but in expertise

Francis Demeules · Jun 25, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

- Power Shot (Marksmanship) --> needs a look at when you compare it to screaming shot (Anet boosted the dmg a little, it needs more than dmg.
- Splinter Shot (Marksmanship) --> needs to be seriously fixed when target doesn't block(The main damage of this shot is it must be blocked, for a 12 attribute, +20 damage while not blocked would be perfect)
- Precision Shot (Marksmanship) --> needs to lose easily interrupted (Lose easily interrupt = almost like Arcing shot, taking a little longer to shot will be a fair balance)- Point Blank Shot (Expertise) / Zojun's Shot (Expertise) --> damage is the same as Screaming and Power Shot but in expertise (I suggest to Anet to boost the damage or making Imblockable for the reason you are half of your range since its easily spammable.)

I quoted in bold about these.

Just an idea
For Power shot, I was thinking about it does +X dmg (low like +10, +15 or something at marksmanship 12) and do double damage while under a preparation. This can't be overpowered, Marauder shot and Melandru shot do +35

Bishop200 · Jun 25, 2007, 04:34 AM // 04:34

I thinks a speed boost would be better than a damage boost, the first time i have use a bow in GW, i have delete my ranger.

GeniusLoci · Jun 25, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Although I believe there are some valid points, I still don't agree the underpowered part.

For example:

Quote:

If anything the deep wound needs to be taken off vicious attack as with GfTE up, it is more or less Eviscerate with no adrenaline to build up

Not so many attacks get crits. it's like asuming one will have high enough L-ship for GftE and 16 in Spear mastery.

LifeInfusion

Quote:

Barbed Spear cost 3 adrenaline when Sever Artery is 4 adrenaline?
Cruel Spear act as a ranged Eviscerate if it hits a non-moving foe?
Mighty Throw cost 2 adrenaline? There is nothing that is 2 adrenaline attack skill other than Mighty Throw...
Wild Throw have bonus damage AND not lose all adrenaline?
Spear of Lightning have 25% armor penetration?

Mighty Throw is at 3 sec cast. The rest are actually the only good attacks we have. You have at least 3x the quantity with very different effects, although they make less damage. Try to apply dazed with spear. Or shoot forked with damage preparation - which does more damage now? Preps are hard to use with Paragon, so the point about poison is not very good. I can surely use Apply Poison but at what cost?

You also know how is adrenaline different than energy based skills. You can't just spam the hell out of them before the fight is half finished. If I don't hit, I can't shoot the rest of the attacks. Out of melee you get adrenaline only from attacks so w/o IAS it's almost impossible to get it at good rate. But now we need one slot for IAS, second for GtfE, third for something that can keep Aggressive Refrain on (as it's energy eater, this is why I don't like it), in PvE there is the Sunspear skill, as Paragon I always need to carry Sig (as it's better res than anything). Then at least one energy based attack (not many of these).

I can make Bleeding for some second's but a) I need adrenaline, b) it doesn't do any added damage. Compare it to "while moving" Hunter's Shot. People always move.

Again - I have some conditional interrupt. You have how many? 10 or more? Disrupting Throw needs condition - not hard to apply with spears (usually) but then it's still conditional. Problem is I'm expected to have large base of support skills, so I can take damage ones only with... idk - guildies or other Paragons. Two, max 3 attacks if I don't need cap sig in PvE. In PvP non-all-paragon setup I don't even have attack skills.

The only skill I always make place for is Blazing Spear as it's damage+burning which helps a lot.

jrk247 · Jun 25, 2007, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Bows are not underpowered nor are they overpowered they are balanced. When half of people say they are underpowered and half say they are overpowered that means they are balanced.

And for all those that think a bow is underpowered. [skill]Apply Poison[/skill]+[skill]Burning Arrow[/skill] What else can give you max degen and +damage in one hit?

GeniusLoci · Jun 25, 2007, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Paragon can use Apply Poison (should be limited to arrows if you call for nerfing something) and Blazing Spear to do the same. Yeah, not energy based but yet it works. Only Apply poison cost is bit on the high end.

People complain the base DPS (damage and attack rate) is low. Which is generally true - spears are shortbow ranged with better DPS. I just pointed Spear mastery doesn't give anything close to the diversity rangers have.

The only bow I think needs some touches is Hornbow. May be even more AP or.. idk. May be Flatbows as well, as their arc is so high.

Engel the Fallen · Jun 25, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by QoH

offtopic, no offense: imo if someone got hit by an arrow irl then there is a good chance that the target don't walk away..., pretty impossible to compare real life to "game life".

An arrow through the knee should knockdown easily and cause cripple.

Or an arrow to the eyes to cause blind.

GeniusLoci · Jun 25, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

A ram hammer in the head should kill, doesn't matter you have helm...
Let's not take RL weapons in here.

Sophitia Leafblade · Jun 25, 2007, 11:49 AM // 11:49

An arrow through the knees would also break stances

Warriors, sins and Paragons can all break stances why cant Rangers or Dervishes?

What about like: Knee Shot 10e, 20r does only 5-15 damage, if it hits a moving target that target is knocked down, If target is using a stance that stance ends.